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	<title>Comments on: Guest Post: Probation in Hades</title>
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		<title>By: Alfred Persson</title>
		<link>http://www.craom.net/guest-post-probation-in-hades.htm/comment-page-1#comment-2355</link>
		<dc:creator>Alfred Persson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jun 2010 07:33:02 +0000</pubDate>
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NOTE*:  Christ builds upon the kinship to reveal how powerless Abraham is to prevent his sons from entering Hades, or even lessen their torment. 

The Pharisees were convinced Abraham could help them:
8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.(Luk 3:8 KJV)

&quot;In the Hereafter Abraham will sit at the entrance of Gehinnom and will not allow any circumcised Israelite to descend into it.&quot;- Genesis Rabbah XLVIII. 8

&quot;&#039;Passing through the valley of weeping&#039; (Ps. lxxxiv. 6), i.e. they who are sentenced for a time in Gehinnom; and Abraham our father comes and takes them out and receives them...&quot;-Erubin 19a
-Abraham Cohen, Everyman&#039;s Talmud (Schocken Books, NY, 1995), pp 381, 382

********
Torment(basanos) not punitive only:
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, 
28 …lest they also come into this place of torment 
&quot;1. The basanos originally belongs to the calling of the inspector of coins. It is linked with the Heb. root … (&quot;to test&quot;)…
 In the testing of metal an essential role was played by the thought of testing and proving genuineness. The rack is a means of showing the true state of affairs. In its proper sense it is a means of testing and proving, though also of punishment. Finally, even this special meaning was weakened and only the general element of torment remained.-Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, G. Kittel (Eerdmands, Grand Rapids, MI, 1964, Vol 1, pp. 561-562

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God. (Zec 13:9 KJV)

LXX: dokimazw, prove, approve.
********

&quot;tormented (odunaw v. 24f) in this flame&quot;:

odýnē means a. “physical pain” and b. “mental distress.” odynáō is “to cause pain or sorrow,” passive “to feel pain,” “to suffer.” The main LXX use is for deep grief of soul, as in Zech. 12:10; Is. 38:15; Am. 8:10; Prov. 17:25; Ezek. 21:11. In the NT Paul uses odýnē in Rom. 9:2 for his distress that his compatriots are shut off from salvation. In 1 Tim. 6:10 the reference is to pangs of conscience that afflict those who defect through love of money. odynáomai occurs four times in Luke and Acts. In Lk. 4:28 it is anxiety for a beloved child, in Lk. 16:24 torment at eternal loss, in 16:25 the anguish of remorse, and in Acts 20:38 the sorrow of final parting from the apostle.-Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged, F. Hauck, Vol. 5, p. 115.

********
Heb 9:27 doesn’t rule out probation in Hades, judgment happens AFTER death, not UPON death.
“it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this cometh judgment; (ASV)
The eschatological judgment potentially very near, when all are raised up from Hades (Rev 20:11ff).
********
Hades is not Gehenna, weeping and gnashing of teeth is the physical reaction (Mat 5:29) of a soul imprisoned in a contemptible body (Dan 12:2)---infested with worms that die not. Prior to being cast away into a furnace of fire, they are bound hand and foot (Mat 22:13) and so are immobile like carcases (Isa 66:24), unable to move to lessen their pain. 

8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. (Gal 6:8 KJV)

Note the imbalance, its purposeful: &quot;reap corruption&quot; is not endless as is &quot;reap life everlasting.&quot; 

This complexity reflected in all NT statements about the fate of the lost. While the penalty (kolasis, Mat 25:46) is everlasting, it does not follow all banished forever are tormented forever.
  
The Lake of Fire is the judicial penalty of the &quot;second death&quot; (Rev 20:14), i.e., the death from which there is no resurrection. Those who &quot;die the death&quot; (Mat 15:4) have their place before God&#039;s face destroyed forever (2 Th 1:9), that leaves existence on that &quot;side of God&quot; that knows only His undiluted wrath (Rev 22:15).  That torment in Gehenna is eternal for only the worst sinners, is implicitly taught:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Rev 14:11 KJV) 

&quot;Eternal Punishment&quot; for accepting the Mark of the Beast is &quot;Eternal Torment&quot;.  
Therefore, &quot;Eternal Punishment&quot; for NOT accepting the Mark of the Beast is &quot;Less Than Eternal Torment&quot;.

The school of Hillel, that of Gamaliel and the apostle Paul (Acts 22:3), observed this distinction:

&quot;Wrongdoers of Israel who sin with their body and wrongdoers of the Gentiles who sin with their body go down to Gehinnom and are punished there for twelve months. After twelve months their body is consumed and their soul is burnt and the wind scatters them under the soles of the feet of the righteous as it says, And ye shall tread down the wicked, and they shall be as ashes under the soles of your feet.&quot;-Rosh HaShana 17a re Mal 4:3. 
-Abraham Cohen, Everyman&#039;s Talmud (Schocken Books, NY, 1995), p 378.

Satan, his demons, Judas, Antichrist, false prophet, all accepting the Mark of the Beast, &amp; the wicked (Isa 57:20f) have no peace forever. Lesser sins merit torment of lesser duration.


&quot;Probation in Hades&quot; is not &quot;Salvation in Hades&quot;, no crossing over from lower Hades into paradise (Lu 16:26) is possible. It is unlikely this view inspire some to sin now, and pay in Hades later. Even if one repented today, their torment continues 1000 years or more until the end of the Millennial reign of Christ (Rev 20:5), until the Day of the LORD Jesus.

Perhaps the Elect Jews who died enemies of the Gospel, reconsider their rejection of Christ (Ro 11:32) in Hades:
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
 33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
 (Rom 11:32-33 KJV)
********

I sent this to you for critical evaluation. The elegance of this proposal is its parsimony to the scripture while making clear what was ambiguous.

Of course, being a sola scripturaist, if the view is found wanting, contrary to the Word of God, I will be forever in the debt of the friend who showed me that. I must confess, I sincerely doubt the view is defective in any way.

Sincerely
Alfred K Persson, aka LetsObeyChrist, Christian apologist</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>NOTE*:  Christ builds upon the kinship to reveal how powerless Abraham is to prevent his sons from entering Hades, or even lessen their torment. </p>
<p>The Pharisees were convinced Abraham could help them:<br />
8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.(Luk 3:8 KJV)</p>
<p>&#8220;In the Hereafter Abraham will sit at the entrance of Gehinnom and will not allow any circumcised Israelite to descend into it.&#8221;- Genesis Rabbah XLVIII. 8</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8216;Passing through the valley of weeping&#8217; (Ps. lxxxiv. 6), i.e. they who are sentenced for a time in Gehinnom; and Abraham our father comes and takes them out and receives them&#8230;&#8221;-Erubin 19a<br />
-Abraham Cohen, Everyman&#8217;s Talmud (Schocken Books, NY, 1995), pp 381, 382</p>
<p>********<br />
Torment(basanos) not punitive only:<br />
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments,<br />
28 …lest they also come into this place of torment<br />
&#8220;1. The basanos originally belongs to the calling of the inspector of coins. It is linked with the Heb. root … (&#8220;to test&#8221;)…<br />
 In the testing of metal an essential role was played by the thought of testing and proving genuineness. The rack is a means of showing the true state of affairs. In its proper sense it is a means of testing and proving, though also of punishment. Finally, even this special meaning was weakened and only the general element of torment remained.-Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, G. Kittel (Eerdmands, Grand Rapids, MI, 1964, Vol 1, pp. 561-562</p>
<p>9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God. (Zec 13:9 KJV)</p>
<p>LXX: dokimazw, prove, approve.<br />
********</p>
<p>&#8220;tormented (odunaw v. 24f) in this flame&#8221;:</p>
<p>odýnē means a. “physical pain” and b. “mental distress.” odynáō is “to cause pain or sorrow,” passive “to feel pain,” “to suffer.” The main LXX use is for deep grief of soul, as in Zech. 12:10; Is. 38:15; Am. 8:10; Prov. 17:25; Ezek. 21:11. In the NT Paul uses odýnē in Rom. 9:2 for his distress that his compatriots are shut off from salvation. In 1 Tim. 6:10 the reference is to pangs of conscience that afflict those who defect through love of money. odynáomai occurs four times in Luke and Acts. In Lk. 4:28 it is anxiety for a beloved child, in Lk. 16:24 torment at eternal loss, in 16:25 the anguish of remorse, and in Acts 20:38 the sorrow of final parting from the apostle.-Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged, F. Hauck, Vol. 5, p. 115.</p>
<p>********<br />
Heb 9:27 doesn’t rule out probation in Hades, judgment happens AFTER death, not UPON death.<br />
“it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this cometh judgment; (ASV)<br />
The eschatological judgment potentially very near, when all are raised up from Hades (Rev 20:11ff).<br />
********<br />
Hades is not Gehenna, weeping and gnashing of teeth is the physical reaction (Mat 5:29) of a soul imprisoned in a contemptible body (Dan 12:2)&#8212;infested with worms that die not. Prior to being cast away into a furnace of fire, they are bound hand and foot (Mat 22:13) and so are immobile like carcases (Isa 66:24), unable to move to lessen their pain. </p>
<p>8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. (Gal 6:8 KJV)</p>
<p>Note the imbalance, its purposeful: &#8220;reap corruption&#8221; is not endless as is &#8220;reap life everlasting.&#8221; </p>
<p>This complexity reflected in all NT statements about the fate of the lost. While the penalty (kolasis, Mat 25:46) is everlasting, it does not follow all banished forever are tormented forever.</p>
<p>The Lake of Fire is the judicial penalty of the &#8220;second death&#8221; (Rev 20:14), i.e., the death from which there is no resurrection. Those who &#8220;die the death&#8221; (Mat 15:4) have their place before God&#8217;s face destroyed forever (2 Th 1:9), that leaves existence on that &#8220;side of God&#8221; that knows only His undiluted wrath (Rev 22:15).  That torment in Gehenna is eternal for only the worst sinners, is implicitly taught:</p>
<p>11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Rev 14:11 KJV) </p>
<p>&#8220;Eternal Punishment&#8221; for accepting the Mark of the Beast is &#8220;Eternal Torment&#8221;.<br />
Therefore, &#8220;Eternal Punishment&#8221; for NOT accepting the Mark of the Beast is &#8220;Less Than Eternal Torment&#8221;.</p>
<p>The school of Hillel, that of Gamaliel and the apostle Paul (Acts 22:3), observed this distinction:</p>
<p>&#8220;Wrongdoers of Israel who sin with their body and wrongdoers of the Gentiles who sin with their body go down to Gehinnom and are punished there for twelve months. After twelve months their body is consumed and their soul is burnt and the wind scatters them under the soles of the feet of the righteous as it says, And ye shall tread down the wicked, and they shall be as ashes under the soles of your feet.&#8221;-Rosh HaShana 17a re Mal 4:3.<br />
-Abraham Cohen, Everyman&#8217;s Talmud (Schocken Books, NY, 1995), p 378.</p>
<p>Satan, his demons, Judas, Antichrist, false prophet, all accepting the Mark of the Beast, &amp; the wicked (Isa 57:20f) have no peace forever. Lesser sins merit torment of lesser duration.</p>
<p>&#8220;Probation in Hades&#8221; is not &#8220;Salvation in Hades&#8221;, no crossing over from lower Hades into paradise (Lu 16:26) is possible. It is unlikely this view inspire some to sin now, and pay in Hades later. Even if one repented today, their torment continues 1000 years or more until the end of the Millennial reign of Christ (Rev 20:5), until the Day of the LORD Jesus.</p>
<p>Perhaps the Elect Jews who died enemies of the Gospel, reconsider their rejection of Christ (Ro 11:32) in Hades:<br />
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.<br />
 33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!<br />
 (Rom 11:32-33 KJV)<br />
********</p>
<p>I sent this to you for critical evaluation. The elegance of this proposal is its parsimony to the scripture while making clear what was ambiguous.</p>
<p>Of course, being a sola scripturaist, if the view is found wanting, contrary to the Word of God, I will be forever in the debt of the friend who showed me that. I must confess, I sincerely doubt the view is defective in any way.</p>
<p>Sincerely<br />
Alfred K Persson, aka LetsObeyChrist, Christian apologist</p>
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